Brian Walker is a Jack of all trades and clearly a master of one: retail & eCommerce strategy. Today on Conversations with CommerceNext, my co-host Scott Silverman and I sit down with Brian to reflect on the ‘today’ and ‘tomorrow’ of eCommerce. Through the lenses of Brian’s depth of experience and the latest industry insights, we examine evolving and emerging trends in eCommerce. Further, Brian touches on his time at Amazon and offers his thoughts on company culture and leadership strategy.
Welcome to the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with CommerceNext and presented by Bloomreach.
Brian Walker is a Jack of all trades and clearly a master of one: retail & eCommerce strategy. Today on Conversations with CommerceNext, my co-host Scott Silverman and I sit down with Brian to reflect on the ‘today’ and ‘tomorrow’ of eCommerce.
Through the lenses of Brian’s depth of experience and the latest industry insights, we examine evolving and emerging trends in eCommerce. Further, Brian touches on his time at Amazon and offers his thoughts on company culture and leadership strategy.
Stay tuned until the end to hear Brian’s retail predictions for 2022 and beyond.
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Conversations with CommerceNext. Please follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast platform where we’ll be sharing career advice and marketing strategies from eCommerce and digital marketing leaders at retailers and direct-to-consumer brands each and every episode. CommerceNext is a community, event series and conference for marketers at retail and direct-to-consumer brands. Through our online forums, interviews, webinars, summits and other in-person events, we harness the collective wisdom of our community to help marketers grow their businesses and advance their careers. Join CommerceNext events to meet other industry leaders and learn the latest ecommerce and marketing strategies. You can find upcoming events at CommerceNext.com
Brian leads strategy at Bloomreach. Bloomreach powers over $200B in B2C and B2B digital commerce for clients across retail, CPG, B2B manufacturing, and B2B wholesale distribution. Brian is a veteran strategy and marketing leader that focuses on the transformation of digital customer engagement and commerce. He has held a wide range of roles across the marketplace - from practitioner to analyst to consultant to vendor - giving him a unique view on the evolving capabilities and approaches necessary for businesses to thrive as digital channels have evolved to become the primary driver for business growth. Prior to joining Bloomreach, Brian was Chief Strategy Officer at Amplience, Managing Director, Global Commerce Strategy at Accenture, Chief Strategy Officer at SAP Hybris, and led commerce technology research at Forrester Research. Brian has also held leadership positions at Amazon, Expedia, and Otto Group prior to that.
ABOUT US:
Scott Silverman
An ecommerce veteran, Scott Silverman has been active in the industry since 1999 and is passionate about digital retail and the innovation driving the industry. Scott Silverman is the Co-Founder of CommerceNext. Previously, he spent 10 years as Executive Director of Shop.org where he launched the Shop.org Annual Summit. Scott co-invented “Cyber Monday” in 2005 and was the founder of Cybermonday.com in 2006, a shopping site that has generated more than $2.5 million for Shop.org’s scholarship fund.
Veronika Sonsev
Veronika Sonsev is the Co-Founder of CommerceNext. She also leads the retail practice for Chameleon Collective and is a contributor for Forbes on how to grow retail and ecommerce in the age of Amazon. Having spent the last 10+ years working with some of the largest retailers and direct-to-consumer brands, Veronika has intimate knowledge of the challenges facing retail and ecommerce today. She is also an advocate for women in business and founded the global non-profit mBolden, which is now part of SheRunsit.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
business, digital, cmo, customer, amazon, drive, organizations, pandemic, commerce, important, people, role, strategy, conversations, brian, ecommerce, podcast, e commerce, thinking, channels
SPEAKERS
Michael LeBlanc, Brian Walker, Scott Silverman
Michael LeBlanc00:04
Welcome to the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast. I'm your host, Michael Leblanc and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with CommerceNext and presented by Bloomreach.
Michael LeBlanc00:12
Brian Walker is a Jack of all trades and clearly a master of one: retail & eCommerce strategy. Today on Conversations with CommerceNext, my co-host Scott Silverman and I sit down with Brian to reflect on the ‘today’ and ‘tomorrow’ of eCommerce.
Michael LeBlanc00:27
Through the lenses of Brian’s depth of experience and the latest industry insights, we examine evolving and emerging trends in eCommerce. Further, Brian touches on his time at Amazon and offers his thoughts on company culture and leadership strategy.
Michael LeBlanc00:40
Last but not least, stay tuned until the very end, to hear Brian's a retail predictions for 2022 and beyond.
Brian Walker00:46
But, I think, if you think about what are the key takeaways, and these are not just related to ecommerce, and digital marketing, but you can sort of think about these as, as, as principles that can be applied to any organization or any business in a meaningful way. I think the first one that really jumps to my mind is this idea of working backwards and I can say that having worked in a lot of technology organizations.
Michael LeBlanc01:12
Let's listen in now. Well, welcome to the Conversations with CommerceNext Podcast. Today we're talking to Brian Walker, Chief Strategy Officer of Bloomreach. Welcome, Brian. Where are we finding you here today?
Brian Walker01:24
Well, thank you so much for having me. I am in my remote home office in Seattle.
Michael LeBlanc01:30
Very nice. Very nice. I love Seattle, been there a couple of times and as always, I'm joined with one at least one of the two of three founders of commerce. Next, Scott Silverman. Scott, how are you today?
Scott Silverman01:43
I'm good. Good, thank you.
Michael LeBlanc01:45
All right, Brian, you've had a unique experience. I was on your LinkedIn page and you have a lot of experience. I scrolled and scrolled and I saw lots of very familiar names, I saw a similar theme around rolls around strategy. So, I'm really intrigued to, kind of, jump right in and talk about, and talk about your background. So, tell us a little bit about what you do at Bloomreach and then we'll talk a little bit about Bloomreach, itself and the company.
Brian Walker02:13
Yeah, well, I'm Chief Strategy Officer here at Bloomreach and yes, I've had a, I have a very long CV, as they say, and you know, I hate to drain the CV, but had many different roles. I like to joke that if there was a seat around the proverbial conference table, and there was a seat for every type of role in the, in the marketplace, around e-commerce and digital marketing, I've probably sat in almost all of those chairs in that career. So, either I've done way too much job hopping, which might be true at different points in time, or I've just been in this market a very long time, which is definitely true.
Brian Walker02:52
My role here at Bloomreach, I lead strategy, I focus on product and go to market strategy. I do a lot of thought leadership work as well, both with customers and things that we're doing out in the marketplace and I get involved in marketing, I get involved in, in sales, I get involved in product strategy, channel, lots of different ways in which I get to impact the business and ultimately, you know, help build a great company that delivers, you know, great results for our clients.
Michael LeBlanc03:23
Well, I do want to get into a little bit more about Bloomreach. I have one question, talk about the tradecraft of strategy. So I see that over the course of your career, and I'll always talk to people who have that as an official title, and I'm interested in the tradecraft. How do you approach being the head of strategy and what does that actually mean in a shop like Bloomreach?
Brian Walker03:43
Well, I think it's a really interesting question. And there's probably lots of different takes on: what does it mean, to lead strategy inside different organizations. I guess I'll just share what, what I, what I do, and kind of how I approach it. I really look at my role as synthesizing lots of different conversations. I have the great benefit of having a large network in the market. I talked to a lot of the partners, I talked to a lot of customers, I talked to analysts, I talked to practitioners, I talked to thought leaders and really, I think my, my role in a way is to synthesize all of those different conversations, and bring those internally and externally.
Brian Walker04:24
And I've always said, you know, I'm only as smart as the smart people I get to talk to, you know, and I think it's, it's really important that we all kind of take that mindset.
Michael LeBlanc04:35
Yeah.
Brian Walker04:36
And it really does take lots of different points of view and really where the, the art and science comes in is determining when something is really, you know, hitting mass adoption or becoming a mainstream trend versus something that's kind of on the bleeding edge or when we're making a substantive change in the market and how it works. Those are the kinds of things I'm really looking out for and certainly, you know, trying to keep it pragmatic, while at the same time, you know, we're, we're thinking about what's next, and how to prepare for that both as a technology and solution provider ourselves and then in the broader market, the people who are leading the ecommerce businesses, we engage with the technologists and people building our platform, the partners we work with, etc.
Michael LeBlanc05:27
Well, it's interesting, as I think back, probably to the beginning of your career, finding insights, or what masqueraded perhaps is insights that were more opinions was a little harder. Now I think the skill is there's everybody's got an opinion, every-, there's so much data out there, whether it's the social platforms, or whatever, distilling it down and kind of parsing out what's real versus what's not and what's important and more importantly, what's not, is probably a big part of that role, right is it's not just about crafting strategy, it's about distilling down, you know, both reality and things that will actually be relevant and have impact to your clients, right?
Brian Walker06:04
Yeah and there's, there's an art and science to it, you can use a lot of quantitative kind of analysis, you can, you can, you can look at lots of survey data, you can, we're a big, you know, sponsor and proponent of thought leadership, and obviously, I consume a lot of different research that's out there and I think it's important to, to look at the quantitative and then there's, you know, the qualitative, as well, and I'm, you know, like many people in the market, you know, paid to have a point of view, I would say, you know, my time at Forrester Research, you know, really helped me, in a sense, right, develop that muscle.
Brian Walker06:43
As an analyst, you know, my role was, was, absolutely, to have an opinion. But also to be humble enough to know when, you know, you didn't have a lot of evidence or when you needed to, you know, in a sense, run that past many other, as I said earlier, smart people in the market and you get kind of test your thesis and understand, you know, how, how real it is, or are we at the point in time, when something that we've been talking about, perhaps for a long time, is again, kind of hit hitting, you know, mass adoption or becoming a mainstream trend, or something that, that really everyone needs to take seriously and respond to.
Brian Walker07:24
I'm fortunate that in my career, especially early on, I was a part of organizations that leaned in and tested a lot of different things, which, which really gave me, in a sense, a jumpstart on many people in the market, you know, testing everything from virtual dressing rooms, to 3D imaging to different types of marketing, and channel and marketplace models and things like that gave me an opportunity to learn very quickly. Now, though, I need to make sure that those biases, those opinions that I might have formed years ago don't become hardened, right, and we're continuing to learn and adapt and certainly learning from other markets as well and obviously, in the US, or Western European markets, where we're focused, are only one slice one point of view on how digital commerce and digital marketing work, we need to learn what's working in other markets as well.
Michael LeBlanc08:19
Right on. All right, well, let's, let's talk about Bloomreach. What attracted you to Bloomreach, tell us, well, I guess, tell us about the scope and scale of the organization. It's a very familiar name to our listeners, but tell us a little bit of Bloomreach and, you know, it's not like you wouldn't have a lot of choice about where you would go to practice your trade. What, what interested you about Bloomreach?
Brian Walker08:38
Well, for me, you know, it really gets to the core of a problem that I think many people watching and listening have also been thinking and focused thinking about and focused on for a very long time. And that is the ability to drive truly personalized experiences, end-to-end and certainly, you know, that's been a challenge. It's a challenge for a whole host of reasons that we can, we can certainly get into further, but the opportunity and the, the, I guess, excitement I felt about trying to tackle that problem, many, many years ago, essentially 20 years ago, at the early sort of dawn of ecommerce,still drives me today.
Brian Walker09:22
I was one of the co-authors of the first cus-, what we called at the time, customer experience platform report when I was at Forrester, again, sort of tackling this problem and the synthesis and for a coming together of many different technologies to drive a, really a, kind of, a holistic customer experience that was personalized. That was in a sense, you know, providing a benefit to the end consumer but also could help optimize the business results and fundamentally, that drive that interest I've had for many, many years is what led me to Bloomreach, because I felt that the company was in a truly unique position to take on that problem and well positioned to, to bring the next generation solution to the table and that's what we're doing here at Bloomreach.
Brian Walker10:14
So, we have a commerce experience cloud that combines three core pillars, it's fully headless, it enables, you know, businesses to take advantage of all these various API's to drive optimization on their business and it you know, fuels better customer engagement through marketing and, and as well as product discovery and content solutions that help you, you know, design and deliver that targeted personalized experience.
Brian Walker10:41
And what's most interesting about Bloomreach and what's drove me here, and is really core to our positioning and value proposition in the market is that it's based on a very unique data platform that combines customer and product data together with AI and ML and Bloomreach has been about AI since its founding, tremendous amount of investment has gone into optimizing the commerce experience and now, with, with an acquisition we made about a year ago and very intense integration of those solutions, we're uniquely able to bring together product and customer data to deliver that optimized personalized experience end-to-end and that's why I'm at Bloomreach because that's a problem I've been super interested in and excited about solving for many, many years.
Scott Silverman11:33
So, Brian, you and I have known each other for a number of years and as you said, early in the conversation, you've been in this industry for quite some time, I think we both can remember, some of the early days when a lot of it was around making the business case for why ecommerce was viable. I hope we're past that, but I'm interested to hear your point of view on you know, where we are, right now and retail and ecommerce. Obviously, the last couple of years has shaped that in a way that we didn't quite expect and probably going into 2020, but you know, where do you feel like we are and what does the next chapter look like for you over the next two or three years?
Brian Walker12:17
Yeah, I would say Scott, the color of our beards, kind of, give us both away a little bit. And you know, I guess all three of us really, and then the, the number of years that we've spent in this market, which means we've got kind of a unique kind of perspective, the first 20 years of digital commerce, I think can be characterized, essentially as standing up the store. You know, we, we've spent many years developing, kind of, the, the business processes, implementing and then re implementing, and maybe re- implementing, again, core technology that enabled us to do that and, you know, it was really, about fundamentally, you know, a single channel a single motion, you know, aimed at really improving out digital commerce and developing it and growing it.
Brian Walker13:08
And of course, digital commerce was, you know, a strategic component of many businesses. But let's be honest, not really a prime strategy, and operationally critical to the company's success in the end. And obviously, that's really changed. We see the next 20 years is about, you know, standing apart from the crowd. So in a sense, we can sort of think about the first 20 years is about sort of implementing the fundamentals and getting these digital channels, now, obviously, plural, to really contribute in a super meaningful way and now we've really transitioned to where digital, you know, is the prime go to market motion and we're really entering into a digital first era. And businesses need to think about differentiating in standing apart, and that goes into how they market, how they engage in the experiences they deliver.
Brian Walker14:08
Many businesses will remain very much omni channel, but it's digital first, so rather than digital, in a sense, being the proverbial 'caboose' on the train, digital is the, is the engine of the train and that means some really fundamental things. It means the business process inside a lot of organizations has to kind of reverse, right. Product goes online first before it goes into other channels and when we think about all the marketing and digital assets that need to be created, first versus last, we think about how we engage with customers and provide a meaningful relationship to them digitally first, versus thinking about offline channels and certainly, those offline channels, the physical stores, the contact centers, you know, third party partners wholesale partners for many brands, those are still very important are certainly in b2b, right the traditional channels. So, it's not to suggest that it's only about digital, but digital must come first and you need to think about how those other channels now complement the digital commerce and digital experience that you're delivering, versus the other way around.
Michael LeBlanc15:22
If you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure and hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, so you don't miss another great episode. We'll be right back with Brian Walker from Bloomreach, right after this important message.
Michael LeBlanc15:35
Bloomreach is the world's number one ecommerce experience cloud empowering brands to deliver customer journeys so personalized, they feel like magic. It offers a suite of products that drive true personalization and digital commerce growth, including discovery, offering AI driven search and merchandising content, offering a headless CMS and engagement offering a leading CDP and marketing automation solution.
Michael LeBlanc15:59
Together these solutions combine the power of unified customer and product data with the speed and scale of AI optimization, enabling digital commerce experiences that convert on any channel and every journey, learn more at bloomreach.com, that's bloomreach.com.
Brian Walker16:17
And there's a number of factors that are, that are now, kind of, driving that and the pandemic has obviously accelerated in a very meaningful way. I mean, first and foremost, it's about the customer behavior. You know, we've essentially done a 25 to 30%, baseline change in how consumers are interacting across these channels and certainly, I think all of us are eager to have the pandemic behind us and not have these constraints and calculations and a sense that we all have to personally make about, about risk and exposure and, you know, I'm dealing with that, as many are around the holidays and other travel for business that, that we've got planned. And, you know, I think like a lot of people, I just don't want to have to think about it anymore. I don't want to have to talk about.
Brian Walker17:10
But even despite that, we have to recognize that, that consumers have made a fundamental change. And certainly, there are different kinds of impacts depending on the vertical that a brand or retailers kind of operating in the demographic that they're aiming and, and serving, but this fundamental baseline change has is very meaningful, and very important. We also see though the, you know, increased competition, and digital maturity is having a range of different impacts in the market, including raised, rising cost of customer acquisition, which is also driving a fundamental shift in how businesses are thinking about marketing through their digital channels, and an increased focus on customer retention and reactivation and sort of core loyalty principles, if you will, thinking about their customer base in a different way and thinking about their digital marketing channels and the commerce experience in a different way.
Brian Walker18:13
And certainly the changes in privacy and data security, and the elimination of third party cookies at some point in time, right, we know it's coming, we're not exactly sure when that'll be sort of fully impacting the market, but certainly, we already see the massive impact of Apple's changes in digital marketing and of course, all of that means that, you know, the, the customer experiences have also fundamentally changed from kind of marketer driven to customer driven and that's another sort of meaningful change.
Brian Walker18:48
So, if we think about all that kind of what I just talked about, kind of holistically, it's about personalization, it's about a meaningful relationship with the customer that listens to them and responds to them and treats them in a way that is important and meaningful to them and isn't just blasting them with offers and marketing messages, but again, digital first and thinking about how your digital channels are really the engine of the train and all the other business processes and channels are there to complement it.
Scott Silverman19:21
Really enjoy hearing you describe that future state. I think it's a bright future for the customer in particular. I think it is not always easy to get there as a retailer, especially as you've said that ecommerce has been in this marketing first approach and needs to make some pretty big transitions to get, to get there. You know, one of the nice things about this podcast is we really like to focus on culture and leadership and career advice and it's hard not to talk about ecommerce without mentioning Amazon, the world's long Just the commerce company, you spent some time there and had an inside look at the, the leadership and culture there, as you think about the Bloomreach clients and other, you know, ecommerce leaders, companies, you know, what do you think you, you would pass along from what you learned at your time there in terms of leadership and culture that could be applied to help these retailers make that transition to be more customer oriented, as you were saying?
Brian Walker20:33
Yeah, I think it's a excellent question and actually, I'm going to refer to a couple of people that I worked with at Amazon, who actually have gone on to write some books, so I can kind of plug like some ex colleagues, you know, work a little bit here, as is maybe sort of directions to think about, but I think if you think about what are the key takeaways, and these are not just related to ecommerce, and digital marketing, but you can sort of think about these as, as, as principles that can be applied to any organization or any business in a meaningful way, I think the first one that really jumps to my mind is this idea of working backwards and I can say that, having worked in a lot of technology organizations and consulting organizations, you know, after my time, at Amazon, it continues to present itself as like a meaningful insight to then bring to the table.
Brian Walker21:29
And it really is about the outcomes. And thinking about, you know, in a sense, right, with, with Amazon, the first thing they do when they decide to fund a project is they really think about what is the important takeaway? What is the announcement, and they literally draft a press release. So, rather than starting with a PRD document, and collecting lots of requirements on that business case, and so on, those many of those things still happen, but really, what they're going to do is start with what is the outcome we're focused on, and they work backwards, and I think there's some really important takeaways there. It's a, it's a long topic, I'd point people to a podcast episode that I recorded on my podcast, state of commerce experience with Colin Brier, who, you know, was the sort of technology Chief of Staff for Jeff, and then has now gone on to write a book about, called Working Backwards.
Brian Walker22:26
And I think in that book, there's a lot of like, keys that, you know, someone can think about and maybe listen to the podcast to get kind of the cliff notes, but I think that's a really important principle in a lot of businesses and organizations. Don't do that. It's, it's like a simple kind of reversal of the common sort of way in which a lot of businesses approach solving problems and I think it's, it's like a useful principle that I, that I picked up in my time at Amazon.
Brian Walker22:58
It's also I think, kind of obvious, I think, to many observers and watchers of Amazon, but that customer focus is really true and, you know, it's very data driven, but it's also based on a strategic flywheel and I think the importance of that strategic flywheel in the decision making, and in the sort of core principles that Amazon pursues, is a super valuable asset and yeah, legend is that, you know, Jeff wrote that on the back of a napkin, and it's still, you know, they still projected on the screen to make it look like it was written on a napkin, in part just to kind of preserve how core it was, to the to the, to the founding kind of mindset and approach and trying to drive the flywheel by driving value add to the customer, first and foremost, which obviously flows to the business.
Brian Walker24:02
I'd say Amazon is a complex enough and diverse enough business, that there's probably lots of things that don't quite connect into that flywheel the way they did, maybe in Amazon's first 10 years, but still, I think, very valuable and then the third thing, you know, again, just from having been there, it's the sort of competitive accountability that sort of is infused in the in the culture at Amazon, at least at headquarters, so to speak, and headquarters is a very big thing now, it has a very large headquarters, but at that core leadership, and second level and third level leadership at Amazon, it's just it's just hard to ignore.
Brian Walker24:42
There's sort of this competitive accountability and very metrics driven and, you know, that ends up having a lot of, a lot of, you know, valuable and less desirable implications depending on what, what the situation is and then the third, or maybe fourth thing, I guess I should say, would just be how a company of that size can, can manage to break things down into small teams and drive like lots of low level innovation and optimization is pretty remarkable because there's just not a lot of large organizations that seem to be able to keep that kind of pace and have found a way to organize in a way that enables that.
Scott Silverman25:28
So, and if I'm not mistaken, this is back, I think, in 2007, or 2008 when I was running shop.org, the digital part of NRF, we had Jeff Bezos as a speaker, and I think you were there at that time. Were you involved in that at all?
Brian Walker25:46
Yeah, it's actually kind of one of my funnier stories from my time at Amazon. So, I was working in Enterprise Services Group, this was the group who was delivering the Amazon platform to no one, no one, please don't, please don't, please don't reach out to me if you had some challenges with the offering, it's a long time ago now, but of course, famously, many large retailers were running on the Amazon platform, like Target and, and in borders, and Marks and Spencer, and a host of others and so I was involved in that and the marketplace was another component to that business, but I was focused primarily on the platform. I think that might have been the only time that Jeff ever spoke to shop.org. I'm not totally sure about that, you would probably know Scott.
Brian Walker26:37
**But we had gotten his commitment. My, the person I was working for at the time, had gotten just commitment to speak at shop.org and it was, it was probably like, two, three, maybe three weeks before the event and I was talking to the person I was working for and said, hey, you know, just kind of wondering like, you know, is this all covered, do we, do we have what we need, like, I was almost like following up, you know, and he said, oh, good question. Can you call Jeff's office and find out where we're at on the content, and so I did and they kind of laughed and said, oh, no, no, no, we're not, we're not developing that content, you guys are supposed to develop that content. And that ended up me being me.
Brian Walker27:24
Right. And so, you know, the first thing I'll try to make this brief, it is kind of a long story. But, but you know, the first meeting, you know, Jeff, frankly, just didn't, didn't want to go, didn't want to do it. Thought was like a terrible idea and I'm like, Well, me telling Jeff right, well, you agreed to do it. So, we're going to do it.
Michael LeBlanc27:49
Right, no press release for that, go ahead right the press release for that one.
Brian Walker27:52
So, anyway, it was, ended up being a very intense couple of weeks with me having to keep going back in with the next round and, you know, at one point in time, I thought it was really clever and I'm like, let's just not use slides, let's just tell the founding story. Let's, you know, thinking, oh, this is my out, this is my way of getting out of having to write this speech and he's like, not a bad idea, but I still want you to write it and I still want slides, you know, so I wasn't able to.
Brian Walker28:24
It all ended up, you know, me having to have, you know, quite a few meetings with Jeff, but the, the interesting thing, and then in the very end, he said, you know, he's happy with what I had developed, but then said we weren't done and then I flew with him on his private plane to New York, which I think was actually more of him, like kind of giving me an Attaboy, like, pat on the back because we didn't work on the plane. We watch Star Trek and ate chocolate chip cookies.
Michael LeBlanc28:54
One day, I'll go to the moon one day.
Brian Walker28:57
That's right, but the, but the, the actual reason why sometimes I do tell the story about that reading that speech and having to kind of go through that experience was actually I saw that he could be very, very tough on the people who worked for him, including me at times during that process, but then when I was with him, and he was engaging with people outside the organization, he was very gracious, including service people and, you know, people we were we were engaging with, throughout the experience.
Brian Walker29:27
So it showed me that okay, you know, there is some reason for him to have some reputation for being a difficult person to work for high expectations was really the core reason, but at the same time, you know, showed some humility and humanity outside the organization when he was in engaging with other people. So, yes, I was involved in that speech. It was kind of an interesting, interesting experience.
Scott Silverman29:54
A great background. I had no idea and thank you because it was, you know, for me, at shop.org, it was quite a cou.
Michael LeBlanc30:01
Yeah.
Scott Silverman30:01
To have him there.
Scott Silverman30:02
** I think people were wondering if he was gonna show up too, so.
Brian Walker30:08
Well, you can thank me for getting him there because
Scott Silverman30:10
Yeah.
Brian Walker30:11
he was not going to do it.
Scott Silverman30:13
You got a nice plane ride and some, you know, Star Trek and chocolate chip cookies out of it kind of thinking about this conversation, I mean, you kind of laid out a pretty clear picture of where you see things going from kind of marketing driven to customer, you know, centric and customer driven. You talked about some leadership at Amazon and probably elsewhere, but we haven't fully made the transition from digital, being the caboose to the engine. I think in many companies, it's somewhere hopefully a little closer to the front but, you know, what are you seeing of companies that do get that moving up and getting it to be more of the driver. What is, you know, is it just, they have to have a board and a CEO that is totally behind this, do you ever see it from the bottom up or is it always top down or, you know, what, what does everyone listening, what can they take away from this?
Brian Walker31:10
That's a really interesting question, I'll try to tackle, I think that this is where, you know, certainly the pandemic has had a meaningful impact, you know, on, on how businesses and in particular boards and the C suite view digital and I think, if anything, it's unfortunate, it took something like the pandemic to create that, but in a sense, it, it moves the e-business leader from the third row to the front seat, right, in a sense, and literally the passenger sea, you know, I'm sure you've heard many stories, from people in the ecommerce community, that echo that where, you know, they may have been driving plans, they may have been driving business cases, and they may have been, you know, pushing things up to get approval, but they weren't necessarily literally in the passenger seat next to the CEO responding in real time to the situation.
Brian Walker32:11
And so the pandemic obviously created that. It made this incredibly important for boards, for the CEOs, CMOs, and so forth, to really understand their capability, and what was going to be required to weather the storm and now, you know, the real trick is, are they really going to embrace the opportunity to excel and differentiate, in a sense, stand out from the crowd and really think in a digital first way, some organizations will, some may not, but it's also these principles that I think are really important, because, you know, for many years, it was, you know, the CEO responding to a conversation they may have had, with their niece or with a colleague at lunch or in the business leaders, half the time felt like they were sort of fending off things that they didn't think we’re going to be really important and so now, I think it's similar in some respects, maybe hasn't remarkably changed.
Brian Walker33:13
And so I think it's getting down to some core principles, again, which is about you know, focus on the customer focus on data and optimization, we'll test things but we're going to base decisions on, on what the customer tells us through the data and then, you know, certainly, there has to be an up leveling understanding of the core technology. And the reality that every business now has to have a strong technical foundation, not just operating today, but to kind of future proof where they're going. That's not necessarily something that every organization was built to, to embrace, right and obviously, for many retailers, for example, or many brands, viewed investments in technology is really a cost of doing business and their goal was to minimize it and that's not a long-term winning strategy when you have to be digital first.
Brian Walker34:10
And so that's also a very fundamental change, that business leaders who are running digital and ecommerce now have to educate the C suite and educate their colleagues and start to change the thesis. I think in some organizations that is, that is happening and others that may be more of a struggle, but those are important sort of differences, right, which we've created. We've opened the window, in a sense with, with the impa-, impa-, impacts of the pandemic, but now it's who's going to go through it and thrive.
Michael LeBlanc34:43
Last couple of questions for you, Brian, but they're both similar in that they're both future oriented. A staple of the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast is kind of putting our guests on the spot and saying what his leadership, ecommerce leadership, CMO leadership look like in five years, and it's not about the role or your place in your career, but it's about, you sit on a lot of tables, talk to a lot. This is why this is such a great treat for us. You sit a lot of tables and try to understand the roles of clients and understand the people you deal with. What do you think that's going to look like in five years, I mean, you know, are CMOs just going to be data geeks, and they will lose that not need or lose that sense of touch or, you've talked about art and science earlier in the podcast, give me a sense of five years hence. What do you think, you know, the role of ecommerce leaders and CMOS in the digital space would look like?
Brian Walker35:36
Well, I think, you know, first and foremost, I think we're likely to see that digital natives are going to be occupying more of those leadership roles. These are people who, you know, don't even really remember not engaging with, with the internet or having a smartphone in their pocket or handbag. Right and so that's first and foremost, I think we just need to recognize we're already seeing that starting to happen. I think when I when we think about the CMO role, I'm probably going to answer it was something that it might surprise you because, you know, I've been so talking so much about data and optimization, and so forth, but I think that CMOs also need to really ensure that they're creating a deeper meaning for the brand.
Brian Walker36:23
And the role that, that brand or service has in their customers lives, when we look at, you know, the sort of generational shifts that are happening, it's really evident, right, that the brands that are being going to be rewarded are the brands that really embrace that and it doesn't mean that it's all about a social cause, and so forth, but you really have to understand at a deep level, what role and meaning this has for customer and it's when, it when someone gets it, right, it's amazing and easy to get it wrong, but I think the role of the CMO inside organizations is very much that they have a special responsibility, but that way to help their organizations think about that.
Brian Walker37:09
And then to craft their messaging, and their, their positioning and their service and their value proposition, you know, in the relationship that they're kind of creating with everyday communication with the customer is somehow grounded in that and I think that's gonna be really, really important. So it's not really focused to a bunch of the other things I mentioned earlier in the, in the podcasts here, but, but I think it's really important that CMOs bring that to the table, you know, the, the companies that really excel are gonna have that kind of mindset and again, I think the CMO has a special responsibility there.
Michael LeBlanc37:45
You're good, last question.
Brian Walker37:47
One last thought, though. Well, one last thought, because I was talking about the CMO and I think about the e-business leader, the e-business leader in five years will be the CEO. So, I think it's, you know, whether the CEO adapts to becoming the business leader, or the business leader gets promoted into that kind of role, I know it's kind of a provocative statement, but I think, you know, in a sense, it's, it's reflecting the, again, digital first and the fact that e-commerce and digital has to be the engine. So, I think the, you know, the way to really look at that, as the CEO will be the business leader, the future.
Michael LeBlanc38:27
I mean, it's, it's a bold prediction, and as much as a few, you know, data analysis and said, what percentage of our business is going to be e-commerce, but I think you're speaking more broadly than that. I think you're speaking that digital leadership. You know, the average grocer would say, well, most of my business probably in five years will still be done in my bricks and mortar stores. I hope so cuz I got billions of dollars of assets in there. So, I certainly hope they'll be used, but I think you're speaking at a higher level. In terms of the future of that role, it is really interesting. All right. Speaking of interesting, we're recording this late December, things are as always dynamic. Any thoughts and predictions on ecommerce for 2022, the year ahead or the year we're in?
Brian Walker39:08
This is where everyone just gets to look back and say how wrong I was, right, you know,
Michael LeBlanc39:15
You learned that at Forrester, you learned, you learned that skill at Forrester, right?
Brian Walker39:19
Yeah, you know, a couple of different thoughts. I think, you know, we will, we will see a number of traditional retailers really pivot to a digital first strategy. We'll also see some pressure on traditional retailers to even, you know, split off their e-business divisions and in a sense look to, to capitalize on, on the valuation of the e-commerce business and treat their legacy business really more as a real estate play. I don't personally like that. I'm not in favor of that. I think that's really limiting the opportunity and making it more difficult to really think about the, the opportunity of those of, those physical stores and inside the customer relationship, and in that no question, the stores have to adapt and change their role in the organization in the customer experience, but I don't particularly like it, but we will see that absolutely happening.
Brian Walker40:20
We will absolutely see an ongoing and intensified focus on digital marketing with a focus on customer retention and engagement and everything that then implies ongoing investment in integration of customer data platforms and, and really thinking about the marketing, organization and investments differently and in the tactics that need to come into play, in order to maximize that and less focus, less investment, less priority given to these customer acquisition tactics, which are frankly, not particularly sustainable. They just happened to be cheap, in the past, and they're no longer cheap, and they're very competitive and it's a good thing in a sense as driving this fundamental shift.
Brian Walker41:08
And then I think, you know, the pandemic, unfortunately, is still primarily in charge, but we need to recognize, again, that the, like the, the behavioral change, and the shift is deeply rooted, unfortunately, you know, we're kind of entering the third year of this, and it's shocking to think about that, but, you know, the, the, the, the behaviors of consumers or behaviors with work, the changes in our lifestyles, you know, and then also some of the generational shifts that are happening all at the same time.
Brian Walker41:45
You know, I think we can look for digital commerce to continue to grow at double digits, and then traditional, so called offline, retail, basically flat, or growing and low single digits, inflationary pressures, the economy, a whole host of things, and certainly the pandemic and what, what happens out, which I wish I knew, but I don't think anyone necessarily can predict are going to have a pretty significant impact on exactly where we come out next year, but we need to, you know, understand that there's some long term fundamental shifts that have happened, and that'll, that'll continue to play out in 2022.
Michael LeBlanc42:28
Well, bold predictions, and you heard it here on the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast. So, mark them down. And we'll, we'll get back in touch with you a bit later to see how we did check those boxes. Scott, last words to you?
Scott Silverman42:39
Yeah, thank you so much, Brian. As I said, we've known each other for a while. It's great to have this conversation and, and hear, you know, how you've really assimilated, you know, so much experience in so many different roles and have a lot of great advice for everyone. I think that's really good for everyone to hear. So, thank you.
Brian Walker42:58
I always enjoy talking with you, Scott and thanks so much, Michael it's a pleasure to be on.
Michael LeBlanc43:04
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Conversations with CommerceNext. Please follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast platform, where we will be sharing career advice and marketing strategies from e-commerce and digital marketing leaders at retailers and direct-to-consumer brands, each and every episode.
Michael LeBlanc43:20
CommerceNext is a community event series and conference for marketers at retail and direct to consumer brands. Through our online forums, interviews, webinars, summits and other in person events. We harness the collective wisdom of our community to help marketers grow their businesses and advance their careers. Join CommerceNext events to meet other industry leaders and learn the latest ecommerce and marketing strategies. You can find upcoming events at commercenext.com.
Michael LeBlanc43:45
Have a fantastic week everyone!