Conversations with CommerceNext

Tailored Brands' CMO On Staying True to Your Brand and Modern Marketing

Episode Summary

Our guest on this episode is Carolyn Pollock, CMO Tailored Brands, a veteran big brand and retail marketer leading her team across North America to help consumers "love the way they look and feel for their most important moments".  Carollyn takes us through her eclectic background of international business, packaged goods and now mastering the art and science of modern marketing and modern marketers

Episode Notes

Welcome to the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with CommerceNext and presented by CommX.

Our guest on this episode is Carolyn Pollock, CMO Tailored Brands, a veteran big brand and retail marketer leading her team across North America to help consumers "love the way they look and feel for their most important moments".  Carollyn takes us through her eclectic background of international business, packaged goods and now mastering the art and science of modern marketing and modern marketers

 

About  Carolyn

Proven marketing and management professional with a 20 year track record of driving growth and building successful brands. Demonstrated ability to deliver results in fast-growth entrepreneurial and established companies by creating a clear vision, articulating focused strategic priorities and managing successful teams.
Capable of managing the entire consumer lifecycle from acquisition to activation to retention through creative and relevant marketing strategies.

Specialties: Brand strategy, marketing strategy, and business planning, eCommerce management, integrated brand marketing, direct marketing (catalog, email, online), merchandising, sales management

ABOUT US: 
Scott Silverman

An ecommerce veteran, Scott Silverman has been active in the industry since 1999 and is passionate about digital retail and the innovation driving the industry. Scott Silverman is the Co-Founder of CommerceNext. Previously, he spent 10 years as Executive Director of Shop.org where he launched the Shop.org Annual Summit. Scott co-invented “Cyber Monday” in 2005 and was the founder of Cybermonday.com in 2006, a shopping site that has generated more than $2.5 million for Shop.org’s scholarship fund.

Veronika Sonsev

Veronika Sonsev is the Co-Founder of CommerceNext. She also leads the retail practice for Chameleon Collective and is a contributor for Forbes on how to grow retail and ecommerce in the age of Amazon. Having spent the last 10+ years working with some of the largest retailers and direct-to-consumer brands, Veronika has intimate knowledge of the challenges facing retail and ecommerce today. She is also an advocate for women in business and founded the global non-profit mBolden, which is now part of SheRunsit. 

Michael LeBlanc  is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice.   He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career.  Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast,       The Voice of Retail, plus        Global E-Commerce Tech Talks  and       The Food Professor  with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois.  You can learn more about Michael       here  or on       LinkedIn. 

Episode Transcription

Michael LeBlanc  00:05

Welcome to the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with CommerceNext and presented by CommX. 

Michael LeBlanc   00:08

Our guest on this episode is Carolyn Pollack, CMO Tailored Brands, a veteran big brand and retail marketer leading your team across North America to help consumers "love the way they look and feel for their most important moments". Carolyn takes us through her eclectic background of international business, packaged goods, and now mastering the art and science of modern marketing and modern marketers.

Scott Silverman  00:36

Welcome to Conversations with CommerceNext. We're excited today to have Carolyn Pollack with us. Carolyn is the CMO of Tailored Brands, which includes Men's Wearhouse and Joseph A. Bank. She joined Taylor Brands in February of 2020. And Carolyn, I see you were at the University of British Columbia. So, I'm assuming that you have being Canadian in common with my podcasting co-host, Michael LeBlanc, who's here with me today, as always,

Michael LeBlanc  01:08

Good afternoon, fellow Canadian. So, as Scott and Veronika laughingly acknowledged every time I have a chance to get any kind of Canadian reference in the podcast. So, you, I think you said you're from the West Coast in Vancouver, right?

Carolyn Pollock  01:21

Yes, yes, I am. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to subtly, you know, putting in the odd hockey reference where we can. So,

Michael LeBlanc  01:27

Exactly. Well, you know, you marketers, you know, you got to skate to where the pucks gonna be, there you go. There's the first one, you know, we -

Carolyn Pollock  01:32

You know we work hard in the corners. So,

Michael LeBlanc  01:36

That's right. That's right. Well, thanks. Where are we finding you today? Where are you sitting? Where's your office? Where are we finding you for the podcast?

Carolyn Pollock  01:43

I am in our office in California in the Bay Area. 

Scott Silverman  01:46

So, Carolyn, why don't we start off having you introduce yourself in your current role at Tailored Brands, just help everyone get grounded in what you're doing there?

Carolyn Pollock  01:55

Sure. Yeah. So, I'm the Chief Marketing Officer for Tailored Brands. As you mentioned, Scott, we have Men's Wearhouse is one of the brands in our portfolio as is Joseph A Bank. We also have a brand called K&G Fashion Superstore, which is based in the South, in Atlanta, and actually serves families. So, menswear is the largest portion of the business, but we also sell ladies and children's clothing. And then we have a brand called Moores in Canada, which is quite similar to Men's Wearhouse, in terms of the products that we offer, and sort of the overall experience, but still has its own kind of Canadian flair. And we're very much a menswear specialty retailer. And my team is responsible for all of the marketing to all of our customers across all four brands.

Scott Silverman  02:43

So, looking at your background, you've had a career spanning apparel, brand, work, eCommerce, other things. Tell us about your career journey. And maybe you know, what wouldn't we know from looking at your LinkedIn profile?

Carolyn Pollock  03:01

Probably the most unusual thing that's not really clear on my LinkedIn profile is I actually started my career in Japan. I lived in Japan for three years and learned the language to the extent that I was able to actually work for a market research firm in Japan, and so I literally had no experience in marketing or anything. And I think my only sort of redeeming quality for the role was that I spoke some Japanese and I spoke English. And we worked with clients across North America and Europe who were looking to understand the Japanese market. And so I worked with Campbell's Soup and Pepperidge Farms as they were looking to get more into the Japanese market, I worked with Unilever and IBM, when they were doing all their global bla-, brand tracking. So, it was an amazing way to really start to learn the art of marketing and the science of marketing and I got a really great experience with that. Then I moved back to Canada, worked for Unilever. So, I got a good grounding in packaged goods as well. And I got introduced to the internet when I was working for Labatt in Canada. And we launched beer.com in 1999, which was you know, probably, (crossover talk), 

Michael LeBlanc  04:09

I remember it well, (crossover talk), Rocco Rossi and beer.com, right?

Carolyn Pollock  04:13

Oh, that's amazing. And Rocco is a dear man. Yeah. So, we yeah, I launched that and then I finally thought if I'm going to do this internet thing, I'll move down to the Bay Area. So, that's how I got into eCommerce and spent a good chunk of time at eBay. And so, then I actually had a consulting business for a while and had the great opportunity to work with a number of clients large and small, across a number of industries. And I think that gave me a really good understanding of just the, the purity of marketing across it doesn't really matter what industry you're in, if it's B2C, B2B. There's a lot of very common principles and a lot of things that we can all learn from tangential industries as well that I now use for, for what I'm doing today, which is great.

Scott Silverman  04:55

So, do you identify as a brand marketer, as a digital leader, as a growth hacker, what like, what, or some combination? Like, how do you, how do you, like how do you usually describe yourself?

Carolyn Pollock  05:11

Yeah, it's a good question. I would have thought for a long time, I was more of a brand marketer, especially with my grounding in packaged goods. But you can't be a successful marketer these days without a really strong grounding and growth and performance, marketing as well. So, I really look at myself now as an all-round athlete across all of that, and I think, you know, making sure that we really understand that interplay of how brand and performance work well together.

Scott Silverman  05:36

Shifting gears, over to Tailored Brands, you saw a lot of formal wear. And I can only imagine the, the impact that the pandemic had on your business. And I'm interested in how you got through that. I mean, it sounds like it was quite a challenge. I like there are people going to weddings and bar-, bar mitzvahs and other things that you do where you wear formal wear.

Carolyn Pollock  06:05

That's exactly and yeah, imagine a business where you're all about weddings and helping people dress for going to the office, and neither of those things were happening. So yeah, we made it pretty well, a couple of different shifts. One was we basically became an eCommerce business for a quarter, when all of our stores were closed, like most other retailers. And so that was a huge adjustment. And it forced us to really accelerate some of the initiatives that we had around digital marketing and, and even just eCommerce as a result. So, like a lot of people, we moved faster than we ever have on things like buying online, pick up in store, curbside pickup, that type of thing. (N)But we also really accelerated the shift that we were already in the process of making, going from a very, very heavy TV offline base of marketing into a much more digital, digital mix. So, from a marketing standpoint, we made a ton of changes that way, we even made changes at the assortment level, though, in terms of the kinds of products and clothing that we carry. And we even, you know dabbled for a while and athleisure, because that was what people were wearing on their zoom calls. But I think what was really interesting too, is seeing some of the sales trends at that time, as we, as we went through kind of folks starting to emerge from lock down. You know, we still saw a lot of shirts selling, we weren't selling a lot of pants. And then we did start selling a lot of pants because everybody's waistband size changed, (crossover talk),

Michael LeBlanc  07:32

The COVID 15, as they called it, right?

Carolyn Pollock  07:34

Exactly. Well, although it was interesting. It was, there was a stat and I won't get the numbers right. But it was something like there was a large percentage of people who went up a size, but there were also a number of people who went down a size, you know, as they, you know, working out at home more and had more time to exercise and that kind of thing. So, but yeah, it was really a lesson in agility and being very responsive to what the customer was telling us they wanted at that time. And that went from everything from our assortment to our marketing mix, to even just the way we messaged in our communication around, you know, the things we were doing to keep customers safe as they did come into the store to shop and that kind of thing. 

Scott Silverman  08:10

Congrats on getting through that and all the acceleration. That, it's like a, you know, it's a business that, that, you know, if you think about what would be most impacted, that's top on the list. But then on the other side of it, you know, I'm sure I'm not alone in going to a lot of weddings this summer, or since some of the COVID restrictions have been lifted. So, you're you have I would guess, like this influx of business going on that I guess my, you know, my question is, you've gone through all of this and you accelerated a lot on the digital side, you became an eCommerce business. Does it feel like a fundamentally different business than pre-pandemic?

Carolyn Pollock  08:53

Um, yes and no. And I think what, what's been interesting when you think of like kind of lessons learned through all of this is, there are things you like we've learned a lot about how you need to be much more responsive and move to the customer as quickly as you can.

Michael LeBlanc  09:09

If you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure and hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, so you don't miss another great episode. We'll be right back with Carolyn Pollack, CMO of Tailored Brands, right after this message. 

Michael LeBlanc  09:12

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Carolyn Pollock  09:55

But we've also learned that it's really important to stay true to who you are. So, when we were dabbling in things like athleisure and, and that kind of thing like that might have been what the customer was looking for across the board. But that's not what they come to us for. And when we got back to our core of like, we really are for those special occasions, and those moments that really matter most to you, where you really want to look your best, and therefore feel your best, whether it's your wedding, it's a job interview, whatever it is, that's what we do well, and that's what our customers come to us for. So, we kind of went back to that. And so, I think in some ways, we've almost gone back to the company that we were before, but we're doing it in a much more data driven way. We're doing it in a much more, sort of customer first, customer centric approach than maybe we did before. But I think that was such a key takeaway that we had was like, you know, fighting, fighting against what customers really like you for and trying to change their minds alongside and that is a very difficult battle. And, and you're, you can be much in a much stronger position, if you really stay true to your core.

Michael LeBlanc  11:04

So, you might describe your company as you would describe them as more agile now? I mean, after two and a half years of this craziness, the pandemic, the COVID era, would, you know, is that one of the key lessons learned, I mean, you just articulated one, which is you know, stay true to your, to your knitting, so to speak, or stay true to the strategy doesn't, you know, is going to pay off for you. But if you, as you and the team reflect back on the two years of the COVID era, what would you know, what were the key lessons, I imagine in your category, there was already a movement towards more casualization of the office, for example. So, some of these things were kind of already in motion. But as you look back again, is there, is there something as Scott said something different about the way you approach things fundamentally, strategically, and structurally?

Carolyn Pollock  11:51

Well, I think, again, like, you know, we all went through so much change, you know, and it was like one thing, and then you change to this, and then you had to change to this other thing. And, you know, and that change can be exhausting, right. 

Michael LeBlanc   12:01

Right, right. 

Carolyn Pollock   12:03

And I think that also, like, change that's purposeful, and is focused is, you know, a much better change, and a much more productive change, than change that is reactive, and, you know, not really knowing what what's going to happen next, which is, unfortunately, what we all were doing during COVID. And, you know, it's like, because of all that it necessitated further change, but that change needs to be much more focused and much more directed and much more kind of consistently on point to an end goal. And, and so it's like, what a lot of us marketers try to do anyways, is we set our, you know, big vision of where we want to be, and we keep kind of keeping our sights on and focused on that and, and you will have to change as you go towards that path. But keeping it much more focused and, and on strategies is, like critical. And I think it's then easier to move teams through that change as well. So, I think that's, been, been something that we've really adjusted to in the last 18 months or so as things start to return to normal is to, to stay focused on that. And you know, yes, you can start to layer things in as your capabilities get stronger. But you've got to kind of stay focused on what your path is.

Michael LeBlanc  13:18

I want to pull on a couple of threads of some things you said earlier in our discussion, and I'm really intrigued. I think our listeners will be intrigued by this, and how you balance performance marketing and, and basically storytelling, right? So, you know, as you look through your background, you've got, you know, traditional classic, great packaged good stuff, at Unilever Labatt. And then you've got eBay responsive direct, you know, very much performance marketing oriented. How do you balance those two, like when you go to hire for, you know, like, the next social media role? Are you looking for a storyteller or performance marketer? How do you, how do you balance those two things? And how do you think through that?

Carolyn Pollock  13:55

I'm a belie-, big believer of the yes, and I, you know, I think it's, you can't do it, you can't do good marketing these days without knowing the impact on the performance side, right, and how to, how to deliver on that. But you also can't drive preference and brand loyalty without a really strong brand, point of view, strong perception, strong values. So, I think it's that combination. And, you know, looking for people, you're not always going to find everybody's going to be super-balanced, like across the board, right? 

Michael LeBlanc   14:05

Right. 

Carolyn Pollock   14:06

Like, it's, you're looking for people who balance one another sometimes, right? Like, I've got some people on the team who are just incredibly creative. And then I've got other people who are like, incredibly analytic, and they work fantastically together. And I love seeing those combinations together. In terms of how we approach things, I really believe that like you can only at the end of the day, like we all just sort of optimize to the customer behavior only and we don't have a strong story to tell. We're just all optimizing to the same people and we're never going to really, you're not going to have a brand that stands out. And so, you've got to have the content and the stories and the values that resonate with your customer that ultimately are how you show up in those channels where you're going to optimize for the performance of it. So, it really has to be the combination of the two. Testing too, like how those, like you can test, messaging just as much as you can test like, are you in the right channel? Or do you have the right target audience and, and that kind of thing. And so, I think, you know, understanding what really resonates with your customer, and then making sure that you're showing up in a performance based channel that actually really works that way. So,

Michael LeBlanc  15:35

Well, it's super interesting, because of course, the platforms themselves that we're talking about, beyond just email, not just email, I'm sure email is a vital part of what you do. But if you think about the evolution of the platforms where it's a little harder, you know, to get any kind of advantage by being an expert at any one of them. And then you also have new, evolving platforms, whether it'd be TikTokick or live streaming or any of these things. So, you know, again, is that, is that where we have less than certain, less certainty around what is good in some of those platforms. So, it's a little more storytelling and again, stays true to the brand. And that'll be our North Star. And no matter what happens, we'll explore but we'll always be going in the same direction. Is that, is that a fair statement?

Carolyn Pollock  16:17

Yeah, I think that's totally right. I mean, yeah, there's some channels where it's super clear cut, and you're going to get instant, measurable feedback on things and others, where you like, you throw something out there, and you have no idea. Unless, you know, like, someone leaves a bad comment on a post somewhere or something, right. But, um, but yeah, I think like, it's, it's just a lot of testing and, and trying different things. And I think it's, it's that, you know, you have your workhorse engine of performance that you know, is going to really help drive a lot of the revenue. And is like, usually a lower funnel type of activity. And then you have that upper funnel stuff that you know, is, is maybe a little more creative, maybe pushes the boundaries a little bit more, still should have performance measures around it, where you can, but it's going to be the stuff that will, you know, eventually do, like, create the memories and leave more lasting impressions as well.

Michael LeBlanc  17:06

The Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, we like talking about career, career advice. What's the best advice that you got? And as you move through your career, you've got such an incredible, diverse background, so you can kind of cherry pick, so to speak, from different places to, to get insight, but is there some kind of kernel of central knowledge that drove your decisions and which way you were going? 

Carolyn Pollock  17:27

Yeah, I mean, I would say a couple of things. The one on the Japan thing, like it doesn't have to be Japan, but I always encourage folks who are coming out of college or at a point of transition, you know, whether it's, you know, just finishing a job and looking for the next thing is like, do something that gets you way out of your comfort zone, you know, and that could be living somewhere where you don't speak the language and you can't even read the signs,

Michael LeBlanc  17:48

That's pretty far, (crossover talk), that's pretty far.

Carolyn Pollock  17:51

You don't have to go that far. It could be like, you know, you try a new hobby or something. But,

Michael LeBlanc  17:56

Is that why you wound up in Japan? Not to kind of dwell on that too much. But I mean, that suits, it ticks a lot of those boxes, right? 

Carolyn Pollock   18:02

Yeah. 

Michael LeBlanc   18:03

You know, you can't read, as you said, can't read the signs and don't know the language yet. That's at the far end of the spectrum. Was that a little bit of what was going through your head at the time?

Carolyn Pollock  18:13

Yeah, I mean, I think I was not ready to, like, start a career. In fact, my degree is in genetics. So, I didn't, and I knew I didn't want to go to med school. And because I would have passed out at the minute, we had to work with the cadaver, but, but I think that I just, you know, wanted to try something different, and, and you know, had a little bit of a spirit of adventure, and you don't have a lot to lose when you're, you know, 21 and you don't really, you know, have a lot of money and all (Inaudible)  just, you can go try something. 

Michael LeBlanc   18:24

Yeah. 

Carolyn Pollock   18:25

And so and reflecting now on it is when I say like get out of your comfort zone, I don't think I articulated it in that way in my head, 

Michael LeBlanc   18:29

Right. 

Carolyn Pollock   18:30

Then. But I do think that's super important. And I think like, whether that's in your career, trying something new, trying out and taking on a new project, even or whatever, I think pushing yourself at times, and, and getting to a place where it's really quite uncomfortable is where you really start learning, good and bad, you know, and, and kind of knowing that you're just going to take something good out of that. The other couple things that I've learned over the years, folks have shared with me, and that I tried to put into practice is valuing different perspectives. I think, you know, I don't have a very traditional CMOs background and, and I look at, like the folks on my team who are really thriving, and a lot of them come with very different perspectives as well. And there's real, there's real value in it. There's certainly value also in following the traditional path. 

Carolyn Pollock   19:03

But I think, you know, knowing that, like you need that balance of voices and that balance of perspective, and it is super important. And the emphasis these days on diversity and inclusion and all that I think only underscores that there. There's so much data out there now that says like, you know, balanced boards and balanced leadership teams and executive committees and that kind of thing like, yield better business results. And I think that there's a reason that that's the case. And that it really is about the diversity of thought and what people with different backgrounds bring to the table. (N)And then the other is really about seeking to understand. And I think that that's always a mantra that, you know, always trying to understand what's behind somebody's action, what's behind a customer's action, what's behind, you know, a teammate's action or a colleague or peers’ actions. And really trying to understand that before rushing to, to just assuming that it's, it's one particular thing or another. And maybe that comes partly from starting my career and market research. But I think asking a lot of questions and really trying to understand what's behind the motivation really helps you be more responsive to it.

Michael LeBlanc  20:43

Now, as you, as you traversed your career, did you have mentors? Or did you have people that you were, your touchstone to guide you along that journey?

Carolyn Pollock  20:56

I've had a few. I've been really lucky. I've had a few who, folks that I admire, Rocco Rossi was actually one of them. I think just you know, people that have a big impact in your life, whether it's an official kind of mentor relationship or not. I've been, I've been lucky to have a few of those. And I think that that's, that's always so helpful. Because again, it's another perspective, right? And it's another perspective that is balanced with a ton of experience and, and judgment that is really, that can be very useful for you.

Michael LeBlanc  21:17

Well, let's turn the lens 180 degrees, so to speak. And now kind of get your advice for the next generation of marketers and digital leaders. What, what, as you think as you hire, as you think forward, what are those attributes? You touched on a lot of them already. That kind of diversity, the analytical skills of storytelling, it's hard to find all of these things all in one individual. But, you know, what do you look for? Do you look for someone, for example, we've had guests who say, you know, I look for someone who was a college athlete, because I know they're coachable. And they work super, super hard. Other people are looking for different things. Do you, do you have a persona that you look for? Is it just kind of an open book for you? And you kind of go with it, you go with it as you, as you meet different people?

Carolyn Pollock  21:59

I mean, honestly, a big part of it is like the conversation and the dialogue that you strike, and, like really the chemistry like there, do you click with somebody, do you feel like you can have a conversation with them. And that, you know, they're seeking to understand as much as I am and asking questions and engaged in, you know, and I look now at, like, all that we've gone through with my team and all that we have to accomplish, like, you know, the fire in the belly and the positive outlook of like, yeah, this has been tough but, wow,, we've learned a lot, and we're going to just keep going. And, you know, there's, there's sort of like a, it's not naive optimism, but it's a, it's a balanced optimism, that I think is a really important attribute. Because as a marketer, at least you have to lead the organization with a place of, of growth and optimism. So, that's one thing I think I look for, and then also just, you know, someone who doesn't believe they've got all the answers. And you know, it goes back to again, like asking more questions and that kind of thing, but that they don't always think like, show me your expertise, for sure. But don't feel like I'm expecting you to have every single answer because no one does, right.

Michael LeBlanc  23:07

Right. So, kind of, kind of understand pretty quickly the technical skills, and then move on from there. I, I, I was talking with, I did an Interview with Dan Pink, great author and a great thinker about people. And I said, What's the one question we should be asking people in interviews? And he said, ask them if they think they're lucky. You'll learn more about their perspective about who they are, than, you know, sometimes when they answer that question. Now, you have more at stake than many in the next question I have, which is, where we work, right, working in the office versus working at home. So, for an organization like yours again, it's more than an academic question, because you both have business interests tied up in where people are going to work and how they're going to work. But let's start with how your organization is adapted to the work from home or work anywhere. Was that, was that something you were doing pre-pandemic? Was that culturally accepted within your organization? Has that changed? Where do you sit today?

Carolyn Pollock  24:02

Yeah, well, I mean, we're a little unique, I guess, because we've got offices around the country. So, we've got an office here in California, we have one in Houston, and we have one in New York. So, we've always had a little bit of that muscle of working remotely. You know, most people worked in one of those offices, but we have had people also who didn't. And obviously, we became a lot more open to that through, through the pandemic. And, you know, as we've hired people, you know, a number of our leaders live in locations around the country that aren't where the offices are, and so we just traveled a lot to get there.

Carolyn Pollock 24:27

But we weren't in a regular muscle of like being remote. And I think we've also found that we're now back in the office, the majority of us are in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And, and while it was hard, and you know, I talked to the team about it's almost like a muscle that's atrophied. And we've got to build it back up and you know, once you build it up, then it's super strong and you can really handle things. But it takes a little while and it can be kind of painful at first to build it up. And that was like our muscle of working in person together in the office had atrophied. And so it was a little tricky at first to get everybody to really see the benefit of it. But you know, we work with merchants who need to be with their products, with their shirts and suits and pants and sweaters and everything else. And we work closely with them. And we need to be around that product. And you know, just the shorthand conversation that happens. By being in person, the efficiencies that we've gotten from that. And the speed at which we're able to operate is, is definitely notable. So, I think we're big believers in the value of that in person connection, but again, having that balance, and so you have Mondays and Fridays at home, which is, which is still a phenomenon and a wonderful thing, that means you can kind of be anywhere from Friday to Monday.

Michael LeBlanc  25:51

Yeah, 

Carolyn Pollock   25:52

That you want, (crossover talk). 

Michael LeBlanc   25:55

Is that going to stick? Is that going to stick in the organization?

Carolyn Pollock  25:54

I think it is. Yeah, I think a lot of people see the benefit of that. And it's certainly, you know, the, the people are back to, to the office, if the traffic here in the Bay Area is any indication. And I think people enjoy not having to commute five days a week and only doing it three.

Michael LeBlanc  26:09

Last question on that, do you envision more off sites are more other ways to connect with the team other than in the 4, 8 or 16 walls of different offices? In other words, I've talked to retailers who say, maybe we think very unconventionally, about this, because we've got, you know, particularly in IT, people working all over the country, and but we need to get them together. And maybe the office isn't the place where we get together. And then everybody started trying to think through that. So, any thoughts on that?

Carolyn Pollock  26:36

Yeah, I mean, we're still figuring it out, too. I mean, it's pretty clear that a community builds best around food. So, we're trying to find ways where we can center activities around, around food, and whether that's events that we tie to something with that, or whether it's you know, creating places in our office where people can gather to eat, and you know, there's food available and that kind of thing. I think that you know that, that is there's a real value in that both on sort of the day-to-day as well as when you do kind of more special gatherings. We're still trying to figure that out, like everybody else is right now as to like, what, what all those things need to be when you have such a disparate workforce, like does it make sense to fly everybody in for certain times, you know, I try to get my team together quarterly at this point so, that we have those opportunities to meet in person. And so, it's important,

Scott Silverman  27:27

So enjoyable for me to hear this conversation, especially your background and the path that you took to where you are, I think it is such an important lesson for, you know, people that maybe are even in college now, or certainly if they're earlier in their careers that you know, you start, you had a degree in genetics and you went to Japan, I think so many people early in their careers have this one goal in mind, and they're just, you know, with almost with blinders on working towards it. And you I really, like appreciate hearing you talk about how you allowed your curiosity and you’re seeking to understand to really drive you and, and kind of allow your path to move around a little bit. So, I think that's a really important lesson, I hope people take away from this.

Scott Silverman   27?59

You know, in terms of just wrapping things up, we want you to look ahead a little bit. So, we've been talking about marketing quite a bit and this balance between performance and, and brand marketing, and you know, the importance of creatives versus the analytics people, and so on. But if you were to look into your crystal ball for five years, it's 2027. And you're thinking about the CMO that is sitting in your seat now? How is that role going to be different? Do you, is it, is there a different skill set? Is it more people in genetics? What do you think it's going to be?

Carolyn Pollock  28:59

It's fascinating, right? When you think of it, I don't know, even compared to 20 years ago. There is diversification of media options, even within which to market and you know, we were talking about the other day, like, if SCO and all that has been about helping people find and discover things on the, on the web search in general. What, how are people going to discover things in the metaverse, right? And you know, then there's like, multiple locations for that. And how are you? Are you just going to, like, show up in the metaverse and then like, hope you find the things that are interesting to you as a customer or consumer. And so, I think like, it's going to get even more challenging for the CMO to navigate the fact that you'll probably have some people still watching TV and then you're going to have other customers who are going to be in a completely different environment that you need to reach in a meaningful way to them. So, I think it's going to you know, the CMO is going to need to continue to be extremely creative, but agile and open to trying different things and testing and, and just being very sort of nimble of moving through all these different media and, and ways in which to connect as a brand with their customers. So, it’s, you know, I hope I'm still around working on that at that point. That's going to be really cool.

Michael LeBlanc  30:15

Well Carolyn, it's been such a treat, listening to your background, I mean, it's really a great discussion of the art and science of marketing put together. So, understanding and listening to a bit of your career journey, you know, bringing in learnings from all kinds of different places and pulling them all together. Thanks so much for joining us on Conversations with CommerceNext.

Carolyn Pollock  30:35

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Michael LeBlanc  30:38

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Conversations with CommerceNext. Please follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast platform, where we will be sharing career advice and marketing strategies from eCommerce and digital marketing leaders at retailers and direct-to-consumer brands each and every episode. 

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, marketer, customer, business, eCommerce, brand, career, CMO, marketing, brands, conversations, performance, office, podcast, weddings, team, learned, pandemic, understand, Carolyn